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Post by Lobstrosity on May 24, 2005 14:39:47 GMT -5
Any kid who is so weak minded that not saying the pledge will make them feel like an outcast, should probably feel like an outcast.
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Post by GamerMan on May 24, 2005 15:31:09 GMT -5
so you are saying you woudln't feel like a second class citizen, if in a government building where you are supposidly suppost to have a seperation from the church, that if everyone in there said "one nation, under allah, indivisible" and then the president always goes "allah bless _____" and constant bombardment of allah so that you can't even pleadge alleigance to your nation without having to mention allah, that you would fell equal to everyone else?
On top of that, what about historical sugnificance, we had the original pledge for over 100 years, why is this one that has been around for only a couple decades better than the one rich in history.
On top of that, what about seperation of church and state. Our founding fathers sperated church and state for a reason (so religious leaders don't, as they shouldn't, have control of a democratic nation), are we just going to ignore their wishes, and if so, what are we going to ignore next, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness?
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Post by Lobstrosity on May 24, 2005 15:40:53 GMT -5
1. I wouldn't care
2. It doesn't matter
3. Separation of church and state only goes so far as making sure leaders don't make decisions based on religion. A simple word in a simple pledge can't hurt anyone or make a difference in the way the country runs.
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Post by chica on May 24, 2005 15:46:17 GMT -5
it doesn't matter if we said allah or whatever cuz we would still have the right to choose not to say it so we'd just be in the same postion as we are now
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Post by Lobstrosity on May 24, 2005 15:53:03 GMT -5
if someone wanted to they could just say their god when we got to that part, or if they're athiest or whatever, they could just say whatever they believe or even skip that part. Anyway, Gamerman you are making a big deal out of something that isn't one.
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Post by chica on May 24, 2005 15:55:27 GMT -5
i concur (lol I used a big word I am so proud)
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Post by GamerMan on May 24, 2005 15:58:45 GMT -5
hmmm just like a conservative, only cares about the "normal" citizen, with no consern for equality... hmm equality, let me see, ohh yes, that was the greatest goal of Bellamy, the writer of the pledge. And I garentee you, if he were alive today, he would agree that creating a "offical government standing on religion" would be against the equality which he was a storng supporter of, and would want "under god" removed from HIS pledge.
and the thing wasn't on if you would care, the question was WOULD YOU FEEL EQUAL, and chances are, no you wouldn't. and I guess then if the history of the original pledge doesn't matter, then I guess lets go wild with everything else, how about from america the beutiful changed to america teh beutiful and discrimating. Instead of "our country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing" we can go "our country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, for god beliveres, of thee I sing" ignore the ideals of equality, and ignore historic suggnificance, and just warp everythign partriotic to fit in with 60% (and falling) of the population.
we use to be a nation that could proudly say that we were one of the only with no offical religion, and that we had the GREATEST religious tolerance, now, we have the LOWEST tolerance of for those of other religions of any developed nation outside teh vatican.
and if we use to have "all men are created equal", but for a nation to publicly support only 1 or 2 (judism and christianity) of the many religions in side it's boraders, doesn't seem to treat people very equal.
and asking to remove 2 words from the pledge to garentee equality to over 100 million citizens isn't making a big deal, you are making a bigger deal out of those 2 words than what it really does (as that line does nothing for the US)
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Post by chica on May 24, 2005 16:02:35 GMT -5
but NOTHING is really truly equal in this country anyway and I don't feel bad now and I know people who don't say the pledge and don't feel badly about it I mean it's just your choice. for once I am agreeing with Lobstrosity here.
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Post by Lobstrosity on May 24, 2005 16:10:08 GMT -5
We aren't supporting those religions just because of one little word in a pledge.
And are you sure we have the lowest tolerance? Or have you managed to miss all of the holy wars and mass murder going on in the mid-east due to religious differences?
If it's about "WOULD I FEEL EQUAL" then I guess no I technically wouldn't, but I wouldn't care if that is all you're worried about, Gamerman. I also think you seriously over-estimate how good total equality would be, and you also underestimate how difficult it would be to achieve equality.
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Post by chica on May 24, 2005 16:11:57 GMT -5
i agree we have been trying to be "equal" for so long that I don't think anyone really knows what it means to be truly equal. I mean no I don't think relligion has anything to do with the government but it certainly is something that is going around locally just like racism.
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Post by GamerMan on May 24, 2005 16:19:41 GMT -5
lowest tollarance of developed nations, that includes europe, east asia, russia, australia, and north america, and select others (brazil and tunisa come to mind). A middle-eastern nation isn't developed (except united arabs emerate and israle, both of which are).
and our government should not take a stance that creates inequality, esspecially if it gives us nothing in return.
yes we are support those relgions because we are saying that those are offical stances of the government that there is a god, of which only 2 religions share that god (allah is allah, not god, buddah isn't even a deity, hiduism has many, athiesm/egnostism has none, ect.)
saying under god is no different than if it was "...one nation, of whites..."
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Post by Lobstrosity on May 24, 2005 16:27:39 GMT -5
people shouldn't take it so seriously, plus they can say whatever they want to.
But if it will get you to shut up, then fine, take it out. But what happens when people come and start complaining about more and more plain ol' differences until there are no more differences left?
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Post by chica on May 24, 2005 16:35:33 GMT -5
like I said there will never be TRUE equality and if you keep changing it like Lobstrosity said then it won't help anything it'll just get rid off a bunch off stuff not help it
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Post by GamerMan on May 24, 2005 16:56:13 GMT -5
A. we arn't changing it, we are returing it.
B. we arn't removing differences, we are getting rid of inequality, and inequality is like a disease, just because we can't get rid of it all, doesn't mean we shouldn't get rid of what we can.
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Post by Lobstrosity on May 24, 2005 17:01:29 GMT -5
If there was a button, a magical theoretical button, that when you pressed it made everyone absolutley equal, would you push that button Gamerman?
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